Computer Association of SIUE - Forums

During my CS 150 class today my teacher kept stressing the fact that although Visual Studio will help you in lots of ways, don't come to rely on those because all of his in-class tests are written and those tools will not be available. He said students in the past have complained that they shouldn't have to take a written test without the tools they are taught to use while coding during class.

I feel like it would help students greatly to start out using a text editor and seperate tools for debugging and compiling to help them understand the process and what each individual tool does. Afterwards, if they want to use Visual Studio that should be fine, but it shouldn't be required.

Adam:  I agree entirely.  314 was the point that I came to the realization that I knew nothing, and that if I wanted to learn these things it would have to be done on my own. 

Large-Scale development is also not a phrase that can describe anything you do at SIUE with the possible exception of a select few senior projects.  Furthermore, I learned the book definition of a compiler, linker, etc... when I was in CS111.  However, I never understood what those things actually meant until I stopped using Visual Studio due to the fact that they are all so tightly coupled into one application.  My understanding of what a compiler actually does was "one of the things that is performed when I click the green arrow".  Also, like Brent said, as a newb developer you tend to spend a lot of time blaming the IDE due to the fact that you simply have no clue what's going on behind the scenes when you click that run button.  

Don't get me wrong, I definitely understand the need for tools like Visual Studio in industry.  However, I feel that there is more actual Comp Sci material that can be learned from using a small editor and a terminal.  

I think you're right in that it comes down to personal preference. I tend to use Vim for almost all development, even large scale, and it works for me, but if someone wants to use VS that's their choice. I think however, disallowing this sort of choice is the crux of the problem. If the school wants to use the Microsoft stack in class, fine, but don't force people to use it at home.

Its entirely possible to make it through the CS program here never knowing that alternatives exist. I would bet most students here don't actually even understand the distinction between Visual Studio, the Linker, and the Compiler, or know that you can use alternate methods. Most students here probably can't use make, ant, maven or any build system other than visual studio and most of them have never touched a command line. When I took 314, we had to spend time discussing how to ssh into a server and scp a file over! Like, with printed handouts and everything...... That's a 300 level class, basic command line familiarity should be a given at that point!

Different jobs require different tools and insisting on using Windows and Visual Studio is very much like insisting that a Carpenter use only a hammer. What methods and tools a programmer uses to achieve the ultimate goal are a matter of personal choice as a reflection of the task at hand. Part of completing any job efficiently is having the right tool for that job, and limiting the tool choice as a matter of policy is annoying at best, and harmful at worst.

edit: grammar

Quote from: Brent Beer on 2010-09-13T09:36:36-05:00 (Monday)
Yeah the problem with visual studio is that, yes we're learning c++ not visual studio, but if that were truly the case shouldn't we be able to turn in a makefile with our c++ program and tell the teacher "here, this is all you need"

Well, not really.  They are using Windows computers with Visual Studio.  I don't see why you can't get away with nmake.exe though since Visual Studio includes it.

Quote from: Brent Beer on 2010-09-13T09:36:36-05:00 (Monday)
Sure, a GUI debugger was nice when i didn't know anything and wanted it easy. But when i finally made a switch to vim/gcc, i learned what my error statements were saying and where my problems were at. It felt more native and like it was ME making the mistakes, ME learning... not visual studio trying to teach me and stifling my learning.

I suppose this is subjective then.  I actually like it when my debugger can lay things out graphically on my large monitors and help me manage multithreaded code in a more intuitive way than a CLI.  I also like being able to look at performance statistics and other things in a graphical way, because it just makes sense.  Also, I think everyone learns what their error statements mean (or should, if they plan on succeeding), no matter the tool.  :)

I've used and continue to use GCC, GDB, Emacs, and all those things on a regular basis.  However, with the workload I usually have, I like making anything easier that can be made easier, and Emacs/Vim (used it tons as well) doesn't cut it as a tool for helping you work on large amounts of foreign code in any reasonably efficient manner.  IMO, Emacs/Vim have their uses, but large-scale development is not one of the greatest uses cases for them.

Yeah the problem with visual studio is that, yes we're learning c++ not visual studio, but if that were truly the case shouldn't we be able to turn in a makefile with our c++ program and tell the teacher "here, this is all you need" not some large folder with a debug folder, archaic files with weird extensions on them? Some are really just looking for the .exe and if they dont find it, well they freak out because they don't know what to do.

Sure, a GUI debugger was nice when i didn't know anything and wanted it easy. But when i finally made a switch to vim/gcc, i learned what my error statements were saying and where my problems were at. It felt more native and like it was ME making the mistakes, ME learning... not visual studio trying to teach me and stifling my learning.

VS is quite a strict, compliant compiler.  What are the specific problems with it?

Also, LLVM is good.

Also, Marksands, that made my day.

This was by far my largest complaint with SIUE too. Many professors are inflexible and expect projects turned in as visual studio solutions. This is of course absurd. Visual Studio's compiler (and to be honest, all of Microsoft's development tools) are wildly inferior to those what's available on POSIX platforms. GCC is a much stricter compiler than Microsoft's and that alone makes it a better teaching tool. Not naming any names but from talking to people the biggest barrier to switching to a more reasonable dev environment is that some of the professors in the department don't want to/are too lazy to learn which is fairly sad imo.

I wrote most of my programs using VIM and the GCC compiler and then ported them over to Visual Studio at the end. Its a great disservice that we are taught what is ostensibly the worst development stack right out of the gate. Keep fighting the good fight, maybe they'll change it if they get enough student backlash. I know I asked every professor if we could turn in programs not as Visual Studio projects even if I already knew the answer, just to try and make a point.

I made this for you:



http://clang.llvm.org/