Computer Association of SIUE - Forums

QuoteQ-Bit wrote:

For purposes of the CS curriculum, it is highly recommended that you stick with a Windows machine, leaving explorations into the Mac and/or Linux worlds as a side-project.

Well, those are YOUR recommendations at least and do not necessarily represent the recommendations of the CS department or its employees.  As it turns out, it's CAKE to run Windows inside VMs or use Apple's bootcamp to dual boot your machine.  So, there is no reason to buy a machine that comes with Windows, especially when Windows can be downloaded for free from MSDNAA by all SIUE students enrolled in a CS course.

Also, I've been using a non-Windows machine for years.  I made it through CS...  In fact, plenty of courses required specific knowledge in Linux or another Unix-like OS, and knowing how to use non-Windows tools well gave me an advantage over those stuck in the narrow lane of MS FUD.

Now that I'm using a Mac to finish out a grad degree, I must say I'm quite happy with it.  I have MS Office installed on it since Openoffice.org sucks on OS X, and MS Office on the Mac is quite nice.  Also, I find that the OS X desktop is cleaner and has less distractions.  It tries to stay out of your way of getting work finished.

I'd also like to say that Windows is only used in a few courses, and to say otherwise is spreading FUD.  Most higher-level courses required a Unix-like system or were platform neutral.

Quoteamphoterous wrote:

If you don't feel like living in the Engineering building labs using MSVS: get a windows machine.

Again, most courses don't even require MSVS; some even require Unix-like systems.  Also, ou can run Windows on a Mac as well... right alongside OS X :)

Skott, students also gets discounts with Apple too.  :-)  I'm not sure if you calculated that cost of the Macbook Pro or even the Dell with the discount or not, but if it was without, the price should come down a few hundred at least.

QuoteWell, except for the fact that you can run VMs or use Apple's bootcamp to dual boot your machine. So, there is no reason to buy a machine that comes with Windows.

But there is a reason: simplicity.  As you may have read, the person we are trying to help may not be at a level to be attempting to "run VMs or use Apple's bootcamp to dual boot [a] machine":

QuoteI know very little (next to nothing) about computers!

While I don't disagree with the fact that the ability to do so exists, I think that it would be a significant challenge added to the apparent difficulty that the student is already having with even getting started.

QuoteAlso, I've been using a non-Windows machine for years. I made it through CS...

What's right for you may not be right for everyone; I mean, you're a friggin' Linux connoisseur! :-P   I, along with many others, have not yet reached the oh-so-enlightened level of programming in a Linux and/or Mac environment.  I think my knowledge of Linux consists of what you've shown me.  That's... about... it... :-D

QuotePLUS! Windows is only used in a few courses. Most courses required a Unix-like system or worked without trouble on Unix-like machines.

And this to me just seems untrue; look at the required programming-intensive courses in the CS curriculum:

CS140 - Windows
CS150 - Windows
CS240 - Windows
CS275 - Windows
CS312 - Windows, Linux (though not in my experience... )
CS321 - Windows
CS330 - Windows, Linux (though not in my experience... )
CS340 - Windows, Linux (for submission purposes only... )
CS414 - Windows, Linux

This is my first-hand experience in the computer science degree, which may not match that of others; whether the lack of emphasis on Linux was good or bad is debatable (and I can guess your take on it! :-P ).

Of course, once a student hits their 400-level CS electives, they are assumed to have some competence of computer science; thus, this is an opportune time for them to begin interacting with specialized topics more in-depth, such as Advanced Operating Systems and, who could forget, Linux Kernel Programming! :-P

Though we all hold various preferences on how we interact with the computer, I think we need to step back to look at the actual problem.  This isn't a debate about Windows vs. Linux vs. Mac; it's about buying a computer that will be easily adapted to the CS curriculum.  Given this, I believe that the best option would be to recommend something that the CS Department offers its students in its labs, which is, in fact, a Windows-based PC.

QuoteQ-bit wrote:

And this to me just seems untrue; look at the required programming-intensive courses in the CS curriculum:

CS140 - Windows
CS150 - Windows
CS240 - Windows
CS275 - Windows
CS312 - Windows, Linux (though not in my experience... )
CS321 - Windows
CS330 - Windows, Linux (though not in my experience... )
CS340 - Windows, Linux (for submission purposes only... )
CS414 - Windows, Linux

More like...

CS140 - Neutral (only lab forces Windows... on a lab machine)
CS150 - Neutral (only lab forces Windows... on a lab machine)
CS240 - Neutral (only lab forces Windows... on a lab machine)
CS275 - Windows
CS312 - Neutral
CS321 - Neutral
CS330 - Neutral
CS340 - Linux/Unix (could be Windows depending on professor)
CS414 - Linux/Unix (could be Windows depending on professor)

Just because you felt like you had to use Windows doesn't mean the rest of us had to use it.  Telling someone that most of the classes require Windows is a misrepresentation of the curriculum.

As for your take on it being only Windows, I think you just didn't think about trying anything else.  I have been using Linux and BSD for the majority of my work since 2001 for CS and other courses.  Most of the time it didn't even matter, and with a Mac it's even easier to just boot up Windows when that occasional need arises.  And before you say that he should buy Windows because the need will arise and will be simpler, just think about all the people in the classes that needed to boot Linux just to finish the assignment.  In their case, it would've been easier to already be using Linux at that time.

Also, running Parallels Desktop on a Mac is simply cake.  It has wizards that guide you through the whole process... but it's not really like you'd even know since you haven't used the software.  Just sayin....

I don't really think Linux is specialized computing.  It's mainstream in the business world and, for better or worse, helps keep the world of automated computations going at this point.

However, about buying a computer that'll easily adapt to the CS curriculum, I think you're absolutely right.  Therefore, I recommend the Mac.  It's Unix (or officially will be shortly) that's easy-as-hell to use, and Parallels Desktop makes it easy to install Windows on top of OS X.

Anyway, I too am not trying to turn this into any OS war.  I don't really care that people like to use Windows; it's a good launching platform for all sorts of applications.  However, I do not like people feeding other people misleading info about what's needed for a CS program.  You always seemed to stick with professors that were using Windows in their courses, and that's fine, but plenty of the professors for the very same courses emphasize the use of Linux.  Further, most of the courses don't require a professor to emphasize the use of any OS, because the C++ code can be made platform-independent (a skill everyone should learn anyway).

Not saying that you were trying to cause any harm, but I just totally disagree in the end.  I think plenty of CS people could feel the same as me since a lot of them were not forced to use Windows in many courses and were even urged towards Linux/Unix in some cases.

QuoteHowever, I do not like people feeding other people misleading info about what's needed for a CS program. You always seemed to stick with professors that were using Windows in their courses, and that's fine, but plenty of the professors for the very same courses emphasize the use of Linux.

I don't think anyone was trying to mislead, I just believe we were trying to figure out what would be easiest for him. Personally, I think it would be better if Linux/Mac were used in the classroom. However, in the lower level classes, it was my experience that a lot of the course was centered around MSVS. For example, the required lab work for CS 140 as well as some assignments that emphasized the use of the debugger. On the flip side, nearly all of my higher level classes did not emphasize an OS or were completely UNIX based (Operating Systems etc).

QuoteFurther, most of the courses don't require a professor to emphasize the use of any OS, because the C++ code can be made platform-independent (a skill everyone should learn anyway).

They don't require them too, however since MSVS is what is available in the labs for students, the classes are geared more for students on a Windows platform.

So... there are definitely some pros and cons: ^-^

Getting a Windows machine would be helpful in CS classes in the short-run. You can always dual-boot later (or even make the full switch to linux/bsd/etc).

Getting a Linux/Mac machine now may bring some troubles getting Windows programs working with another operating system. As well as a greater learning curve. However, it would be beneficial in the long run to have these skills.

hahah. i stop checking caos for 20 hrs and look at what i missed!

bottom line, getting a mac with parallels is the most versatile option.

i bet bobberdude didn't expect this kind of response! haha.


JR

In my opinion, which doesn't count for much, I would buy a Windows or bare-bones system.  Such systems can be bought very cheaply (or at least a lot cheaper then a Mac...) and since Windows is available through MSDN you can save some cash on the operating system if you go the bare-bones route.  My main argument for a cheap Windows system is that, in most cases, Windows is the OS new CS students will know best.  This keeps the learning curve low.  If they want to experiment with the wonderful world of Linux then a dual boot or a complete trashing of Windows can be arranged.  If they decide a Mac is their system of choice (hopefully all you Mac-Addicts out there will have exposed them to the amazing Mac OS by then) then they won't have any regrets about putting down a grand to get it.  
The point is that we are in school to learn.  Everyone learns at a different pace and making the process as painless as possible is something we should all strive to do.  In my experience, going with Windows and transitioning to a Unix based system is the least painful way to go. :-D

Pain = Bad

Macs...  

Price for this Dell XPS M1210: $1299.00.  It has the same specs as this Macbook: $1299.00.

You get OS X on the Mac, and can put Windows on it at no extra charge thanks to Apple's bootcamp and MSDNAA if you ever felt the need :)

I see no price problems here; that just USED to be the case with Apple products.

You can get educational discounts from either store.

QuoteThanks for all the feed back,
but I still have questions!

I was told to "build whatever I want"!
The problem is I don't know what I want!
I need specs.

also
I thought that there were lots of problems working on Macs??

I'm illiterate AND I hate to read. <- haha  :lol:

so... I skipped all the arguing about Macs versus Windows etc.
and.. to answer your question:

You don't need a very powerful machine to run all the software you need and get good speed and performance while running multiple things at once.


Simple Answer:

512MB-1GB Memory
80-200GB Hard drive
2.0GHZ~ processor (Dual Core is nice)

Brands:

Laptops-
  ***MacBook*** (you can run parallels or boot camp and have Windows XP [free from school] as a secondary OS to run programs like Visual Studio 2005, Microsoft Visio, etc which also are all free from the school. OS X is such a nice operating system, it will help diversify you.
  HP
  Dell is ok

Desktop-
  Honestly build one. It's a good experience, you'll learn a lot about hardware, and you won't be paying for the lowest bid parts shoved into a tiny box that boasts a fast processor. (See below to get some ideas)
  Otherwise:
  Avoid: Gateway like the plague
  Dell is ok

If you want to build: (brands)
MotherBoard: ASUS / SOYO are my preffered brands
Soyo has a lot of boards that have a nice build in 5.1 surround sound if you don't want to break for an expensive Sound Blaster Card. Though ASUS is probably the way to go.

Processor: I prefer AMD over Intel.

Memory: Corsair

Heatsink: Zalman or Thermaltake

Power Supply: Antec 350W is solid for a single core processor. Not sure for dual core.

Hard Drive: Seagate or Maxtor (UATA 133 or SATA 150)

Sound Card: Optional (you can buy a mainboard with integrated sound that will put out good sound and that can be turned off if you decide to upgrade) Otherwise Sound Blaster

Graphics Card: Expensive (you can get motherboards with this on board as well) Nvidia or ATI depends on the series

DVD Drive: Depends on the Model

Thermal Paste: Arctic Silver

Fans: I like the Vantec UV reactive ones. They put out a lot of air and are not too loud. Plus light kits are cool.

Case: Lian Li cases are godly. They are soooo nice. Really high quality. May not be the coolest looking ones but they are nice. (trust me ~ you don't know till you've build into a cool looking piece of steel or plastic crap)

Notice: I haven't listed specific parts because I haven't researched the latest parts since I build my machines about 2 years ago.

However, this is what i'm running and it will run everything you need plus quite a few games:

Lian Li PC-60 w/ Custom Window & 4 fans
Soyo SY-KT600 Dragon Ultra Platinum
Thermaltake Silent PurePower Butterfly 480 Watt PSU
AMD Athlon XP 2500+ oc'd to 3200+
Zalman CNPS7000A-AlCu
Corsair XMS PC3200 512Mb Cas 2
BFG Asylum GeForce FX 5900 128Mb
Soundblaster Audigy Platinum 2
Maxtor 80Gb 7200Rpm 8Mb Cache
Maxtor 120Gb 7200Rpm 8Mb Cache
Sony CDRW 52X24X52
Samsung DVD Rom 16X
Sony Floppy Drive
External temp sensor
Smartcard/usb/firewire reader
2 ultraviolet cold cathode lights
Vantec Nexus fan and light control
Vantec Spectrum UV LED Fans x4

KDS 19" .20H/.25V dpi XF-9bi
Windows Wireless Multimedia 1.0A Keyboard
Windows Wireless Intellimouse EX 2.0 Mouse
X-box controller
Altec Lansing Speakers 5100 5.1
HP PSC 1210 Printer/Scanner/Copier
Motorola SB5100 Cable Modem

This will give you a basis for building a computer, but you will need to research it quite a bit to make a decision.

Where to buy:
Newegg.com
ZipZoomFly.com

These two sites will get most everything you need with no risk (and quickly at that).

For special deals check:
slickdeals.net
xpbargains.com

Low price listing website resource:
pricewatch.com (but again just use newegg. it's safer and usually not much more than the cheapest sites)

Finally, feel free to ask me questions about building computers if you see me in the tutor lab. I'm sure I can answer your questions clearly.

Jesse  ;-)

Nice specs.  And thank you for answering this guy's real question. :-) Guess we all got caught up in the great old debate. :-D

QuoteJust because you felt like you had to use Windows doesn't mean the rest of us had to use it. Telling someone that most of the classes require Windows is a misrepresentation of the curriculum.

Unfortunately, I do feel the need to address being misrepresented on here; I said "look at the required programming-intensive courses in the CS curriculum", thus I am referring to the required courses, not the required operating systems.  However, I realized after your statement that programming for the Windows environment, was, in fact, a requirement in many of my experiences.  In other words, I could have programmed on any machine I wanted (Windows-based, Linux-based, OSX-based, etc.); however, the final version had to be able to be compiled and run on a Windows machine.

QuoteYou always seemed to stick with professors that were using Windows in their courses

Actually, I seemed to stick with professors that were simply teaching courses that were required by the major (i.e., it didn't matter who taught the course... ).  Whether or not they emphasized Windows versus any other operating system was of no concern to me.  And on a side note, I have only avoided two professors in my college career... and I will leave their identities for you to find out (please keep your guesses private! :-P )... ;-)

QuoteHowever, I do not like people feeding other people misleading info about what's needed for a CS program.

Again, I'm not stating that running Windows on my own box was required.  However, for a majority of the courses I took, I had to submit a version of the program that was usable in the Windows environment.  Consequently, in CS414 (Operating Systems), I had to submit two versions of every program: one for Windows and one for Linux; this was required (and understandably so!).  However, this is the only case that I've ever encountered.

I am, by no means, a Windows advocate, but I genuinely feel that it is the most straightforward approach to the CS program.  While "running Parallels Desktop on a Mac" may be "simply cake," it adds an extra, unnecessary step in approaching the degree (based upon course and lab emphasis); this step could be particularly drastic for someone who is not that familiar with computers (as is the case here).  And though I state that this step may be extra and unnecessary, I am not claiming that it is not recommended to do; explore different avenues of computing if you're curious!

I, too, am not trying to turn this into any OS war.  However, I will defend that our discussion is relevant in that it may affect the hardware specifications considered, so I am willing to continue it if you are (yay, Mikey! :-) ).

My recommendation: major in Philosophy; buy a GameBoy DS...

... **ducks**...

... just kidding... :lol:

Then I guess it shall be your opinion that it is unnecessary.  However, based on real-life use of the product and testimonies of others, I'll continue to think it's easy and only enhances your knowledge instead of making your focus narrow.  I'll also continue to think that most of the professors don't give two craps what OS you use, and that if a particular OS is required, such as Linux, then no matter if you have OS X or Windows installed, you'll be facing the use of a VM and/or dual-boot and/or SSH.

I still stand by the fact that following Apple's bootcamp wizards and Parallels Desktop wizards are a piece of cake.  I also stand by the opinion that productivity since I started using OS X has seemed to have risen significantly due to the lack of pop-ups, question dialogs, and other things that plague Windows systems :-/

Quoteit's easy

... agreed...

Quoteenhances your knowledge instead of making your focus narrow

... agreed...

Quotefollowing Apple's bootcamp wizards and Parallels Desktop wizards are a piece of cake

... agreed...

... but you and I are familiar with computers... and our friend is not;... it's still one extra, unnecessary (and yes, this is just my opinion...  :-P ) step...

**shrugz**... agreeing to disagree... :-)