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Screw this...

Started by Ross Mead, 2006-11-14T00:19:39-06:00 (Tuesday)

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Devon Berry

I also have somewhat utopian views and so I do think that world peace is a real possibility in the future. Unfortunately, we will need to seriously revamp people's view on the world. At the moment, everyone is far too jaded and unforgiving about the world and everyone else. I suppose one of the main reasons we do not have world peace is selfishness. Many people are unwilling to share and like to be selfish for themselves or their own group. One of the things that could really help this along would be a unified world government. Now, I am aware people fear this idea, since a corrupt government would rule the world, but governments can be overthrown and the United States at the moment is the most powerful government in the world so should we be fearing it then? (Hehe, I think so. :lol:)

This will take a very long time I think. It is very hard to change the way people think. The only way I could see this happening in the near future is if aliens attacked us. Then we would be able to unify as a people and help each other. Unfortunately, this would merely mean more wars and more selfishness, it would just take place outside Earth. It wouldn't really be any closer to the utopian view.

We just have to keep trying to take small steps towards a better world whenever we get the opportunity.

By the way, note that just because I graduated doesn't mean I will stop reading the forums. Does that make me a geek? (I know I am one for other reasons. :-P)

blacklee

I need some data to plug into my geek-computing formula. Let's see... how often do you read the forum? when did you graduate? what's your name? ...he-he, just kidding.

Last time I went shopping in the mall, I almost bought a t-shirt that says "I love geeks," but changed my mind. That would be hysterical though to wear it on campus one day. Girls, somebody, do it.  :-)

Tony

I just saw this thread and wanted to add my two cents.  

I don't get why some people freak out when anything dealing with the military comes out.  A few people on here and of course all over the world think that war is bad no matter what but they never think that America, Europe, and most of the modern world would not be what it is today without it.  It isn't always bad.

Which is what I feel about this new weapon.  If you noticed it doesn't move.  This is not an offensive weapon.  It is nothing more than a fancy gun turret.  If you are really worried about human life, in a case such as this, you should not be worried about the weapon, you should be worried about the invaders.  

If North Korea doesn't invade South Korea there shouldn't be a problem.  People have every right to defend themselves and a gun such as this gives them that much more security.  

You said earlier "yay America can wage war cheaper.  The American way!," or something to that effect, but finances is just as much a part of war as fighting.  If you go broke trying to defend yourself then you might as well never started fighting in the first place.

I guess what I am trying to get at is this.  Why don't people like you stop trying to say the gun is what is killing people and start saying whom the real killers are, the people.  If people like Kim Jon Il or however you spell his name, would not try to take over other countries, people wouldn't die.  If people like Hitler, Osama Bin Ladin, and Saddam would not desire to kill people then the wars would never happen.  So, if you want to make a difference, try to teach people compassion and remorse rather than teaching them to be scared of guns.
I would rather be hated for doing what I believe in, than loved for doing what I don't.

Ross Mead

QuoteIf you noticed it doesn't move. This is not an offensive weapon.
Agreed,... but, I ask you, what is the next logical step?

QuoteIf you are really worried about human life, in a case such as this, you should not be worried about the weapon, you should be worried about the invaders. f you want to make a difference, try to teach people compassion and remorse...
Again,... agreed;... that was my point... :-P

QuoteI don't get why some people freak out when anything dealing with the military comes out. A few people on here and of course all over the world think that war is bad no matter what but they never think that America, Europe, and most of the modern world would not be what it is today without it. It isn't always bad.
Don't get me wrong, I like my country--heck, I like the world as a whole.  I guess we did what we had to do to get here,... and things are good.  But could they not be better?  Perhaps if we had compromised in the past, things would be different.  I don't think we'd be as well off as we are today; these things take time, and I don't think we'd be as far as we are right now.  However, I firmly believe that we would have established a better footing for generations to come; the future would be brighter.  I think someday we'll reach a limit given our current trend and mindset.  At this point, I would hope that people would have no other choice but to become compassionate with one another, lowering their guns, whether offensive or defensive, man or machine.

William Grim

QuoteDon't get me wrong, I like my country--heck, I like the world as a whole. I guess we did what we had to do to get here,... and things are good. But could they not be better? Perhaps if we had compromised in the past, things would be different. I don't think we'd be as well off as we are today; these things take time, and I don't think we'd be as far as we are right now. However, I firmly believe that we would have established a better footing for generations to come; the future would be brighter. I think someday we'll reach a limit given our current trend and mindset. At this point, I would hope that people would have no other choice but to become compassionate with one another, lowering their guns, whether offensive or defensive, man or machine.

This reminds me of something I saw on the WoW episode of South Park.  "The French just quit playing, and looked what happened to them.  Are you French, Ross?"

Ha ha, I couldn't resist.  I also think if we had compromised any more in WW2, we would have been owned.
William Grim
IT Associate, Morgan Stanley

Ross Mead

Quote"The French just quit playing, and looked what happened to them. Are you French, Ross?"
Je ne suis pas... (that's right... Ross took French 101...  ;-) )

QuoteI also think if we had compromised any more in WW2, we would have been owned.
I apologize for not being as clear as intended; I was arguing that it would have been nice had it never gotten to that point--in other words, it would have been nice had WW2 not happened at all.  I don't think you, or anyone else for that matter, would disagree.  However, it did happen, and we did what was necessary to survive.  We (humanity) should learn from our mistakes and all become stronger and wiser from them; that's what mistakes are for.  There is no reason why something like that should happen again,... but do you think we have learned our lesson... or [will it | should it] happen again?

DaleDoe

QuoteTonedog wrote:
Why don't people like you stop trying to say the gun is what is killing people and start saying whom the real killers are, the people.

I'm not sure if that was directed also at me or not, but I will clarify:

I agree wholeheartedly with your comment.  I like guns.  In fact, I believe everyone responsible enough to handle one should probably have one.  You'll find few personal weapons I have a problem with.  I just have a problem sometimes with the USE of weapons or one group of people having weapons and another not having them.

For example, do you think Hitler could have had the Jews rounded up and mass-murdered if the German people had firearms?  Heck no!  No sane soldier would go door to door rounding people up if he knew the people inside were probably armed.

But I'm only talking for use in self-defense here.  Is anyone still arguing attacking Iraq was in self-defense?  How much of what our military has done over the past 50 years was legitimate self-defense?  Not that much.  I'm not saying our leaders are nearly as bad as Hitler or Stalin, etc. but they do seem to like killing people, too.

Also, I am somewhat uncomfortable with autonomous weapons.  I know people are not perfect, but I don't tend to trust an AI to decide who to kill and who not to kill.  What do you guys think who have, like I, programmed robots?  Furthermore, when you allow one side to wage war with almost no risk to themselves personally (i.e. they have a HUGE advantage in military technology or have somebody or something else fighting the war for them), you will have more war.
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." -James Madison

Tony

QuoteFor example, do you think Hitler could have had the Jews rounded up and mass-murdered if the German people had firearms? Heck no! No sane soldier would go door to door rounding people up if he knew the people inside were probably armed.

I see what you are saying, but think about it.  Guns are not something that only rich countries can make.  In some parts of the world, making a gun is almost common knowledge.  If a country like America got rid of all its guns, what do you think would happen?  Whoever decided not to get rid of there would take over, and you can't make them get rid of their guns unless you have guns also.  

Many people don't know this, but Joseph Stalin was quoted saying that he would not invade America because "every American has a gun."  If it wasn't for the fact that all our citizens have the ability to defend themselves, we would have been at war with Russia a long time ago.  The fact that many people carry guns in the Middle East is also why we are having such a problem right now.  

We had no problem taking out Saddam's army, and what most people don't know is that Iraq had the 5th largest military before we tore them up in Desert Strom.  The problem comes when we have to go house to house and fight every single person with a gun.  

So basically, guns will always be there.  Everyone in the world can agree they help people kill more people and that we need to get rid of them.  Every country can agree to do so, but it only takes one person with the know-how or the money to make guns and they take over.  Even without guns, we would still find a way to kill people just the same.  The problem isn't the guns, the problem is the people who want to kill for money, power, or what ever else they want.
I would rather be hated for doing what I believe in, than loved for doing what I don't.

Sam Seavey

QuoteThe problem isn't the guns, the problem is the people who want to kill for money, power, or what ever else they want.

That is partly true.  The underlying problem is that people have different moral beliefs, which mostly (or at the very least, partly) come from religious beliefs.  If everyone had good clean morals then their would be no violence, no crime, no hatred, no point for war.  BUT, no two people have the exact same values and that leads to conflict.  People are very unwilling to change their personal morals (because they are so personal) to conform to any standard so conflict is unavoidable.

Whole societies even have their own set of morals.  That is why some countries have legalized pot and/or prostitution and some haven't.  Although these differences wouldn't (or shouldn't) bring countries to war, it shows that even whole countries have different morals and therefore conflict between countries (war) is also unavoidable.  

How do we stop it?  Well as people we can only change our OWN personal beliefs/morals.  We need to start with making ourselves "better" (have higher morals).  A country full of people with high morals would naturally have a government with (ideally) higher morals.  A world full of governments with higher morals would naturally be a world of high morals.  A world of high morals would be a world without war.  

Seems like a long way away from happening but it isn't.  The world COULD be a totally different place within one or two generations if only the members of this generation take the responsibility of teaching the next generation the morals that they've learned.  

Where to find "high morals"?  Well a good place to look, regardless of religion, is the Book of Proverbs in the Bible.  AHHHHHH the BIBLE?!?!?  Yes... the Bible.  
Sam Seavey - Idiot - CS Major

blacklee

QuoteA country full of people with high morals would naturally have a government with (ideally) higher morals.
This is true, but remember Maslow’s hierarchy theory â€ââ,¬Å" morality is a â€Ã...“higher needâ€Ã, that doesn’t come in focus until â€Ã...“basic needsâ€Ã, are mainly satisfied. Someone here mentioned a â€Ã...“popularly-electedâ€Ã, government in Africa. There is no such thing as truly elected government even in countries much more developed than African, because popular candidates simply don’t live very long. The reality is, people in economically undeveloped countries do not fight corrupted government, and even when they try, they get killed.

Some of you may ask what it has to do with us. Being a more evolved society, why can’t we just let history take its course and wait until all other countries  ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã...“evolve?â€Ã,  Why take responsibility for deaths of innocent people with military interventions? We’d feel much better about ourselves, our morals wouldn’t be compromised, and some of the governments would love us if we’d just stop interfering and minded our own business. Ironically, my answer to this question is the very subject that started this discussion - military technology. In the past, a â€Ã...“bad guyâ€Ã, in charge of some country would be just a part of the history. Today, with the constant advance in technology come weapons of mass destruction, and the â€Ã...“bad guyâ€Ã, may very well be capable of ending the human history. It is important they know that they can’t do whatever they wish and remain unpunished. Maybe I’m just paranoid, I don’t know.
â€Ã...“Thatguyâ€Ã, said â€Ã...“We will truly be on the path to being an evolved species when we can base our actions not on the fears, but on the hopes and ideals, in our hearts.â€Ã, In my opinion, preemptive military actions are based not on fears, but on common sense. Just like bringing a parachute when you jump from a plane is based on a common sense and not on fear. I know, I know, parachutes don’t kill innocent people. I’m sure we all have moral believes against hurting innocent, we’ve already discussed â€Ã...“killing 1 to save 5â€Ã, here earlier. It seems to me that people who don’t believe in â€Ã...“greater Goodâ€Ã, also base their views on fear. Different kind of fear though â€ââ,¬Å" they are afraid of living with moral consequences, or being regarded a killer, or going to hell... whatever it is, seems selfish to me. I’m probably wrong though.

I do believe in the future there will be no suffering, no hunger, and no wars. I agree with everyone who already said, it might take some time.

Tony

QuoteThat is partly true. The underlying problem is that people have different moral beliefs, which mostly (or at the very least, partly) come from religious beliefs.

This statement is completely wrong.  Yes religion has caused war, but not all wards or problems.  Nothing Hitler did had anything to do with Religion, or at least the majority of what he did.  Vietnam had nothing to do with religion.  The Korean War had nothing to do with religion.  Actually, probably 90% of wars were not because of religion.  The current war in Iraq has nothing to do with religion.  For the terrorist it is about religion, but for us it is about protecting this country, whether it be financially or physically.

The only wars that were truly about religion were the crusades.  Christians used to feel they were given the world and they needed to take back the holy land, or expand to all ends of the earth, but they have learned their lesson.  We no longer wage Holy War, but many people in the Middle East do.  People always hate to give America credit but I believe this country is mostly responsible for that change in Christianity.  In the Middle East they have never had a region where they had freedom of speech or freedom of religion.  Those two basic rights is what allowed people to speak out about how things where handled in Christianity and changed it for the better.  Who knows, maybe if things go right in Iraq the Middle East might actually have that region for the first time and we might see a real change for the better.

 
I would rather be hated for doing what I believe in, than loved for doing what I don't.

Ross Mead

Well, I thought this was ironic:

Top 5 Robots of 2006

Take a look at #1...

 :no:

William Grim

Looks good.  Lives will be saved :)  That's more than I can say for the other robots there.
William Grim
IT Associate, Morgan Stanley