Java at SIUE?

[Guest]

It's been a while since I've been up at SIUE but last time I was there VB was the defacto standard for creating anything more complicated then command line stuff....with the exception of some Win32 C++ API stuff in one of the OS classes VB was the only thing taught in terms of event based app development.

I was wondering if things have changed? I looked at a few of the senior projects and it looks like they where developed in VB. Are you using VB.Net now or still VB 6.0?

When I came across a slashdot article about # of jobs per coding language I found what I already knew that Java was leading with C++ next in line and VB third. There are very few VB based jobs in the local area but a lot of java J2EE jobs in the local area. Everything in C++ deals mostly with COM/DCOM WinDNA...stuff as far as I'm aware beyond the scope of what they teach at SIUE.

So is SIUE teaching java as they once taught VB...if not maybe it should be.

[Peter Motyka]

I took the CS390 topics course in JAVA a few semesters ago.  This course was not included as a CS elective and has not been offered on a regular basis (if ever again).  I dont see any major move from VB when it comes to GUI programming.  The environment facilitates rapid development and prototyping.  Now that .NET has come around, it is just as easy to create GUI based applications with C#, so perhaps the department will move towards C# for a more *serious* GUI development.

Peter

[Guest]

Here are the percentages, if anyone cares to see:
(Number of jobs requesting knowledge in a particular language, gathered from monster.com, hotjobs.com & dice.com):

Java - 27.82%
C++ - 22.65%
Visual Basic - 20.35%
Perl - 10.01%
Javascript - 9.17%
C# - 3.46%
Ada - 3.01%
PHP - 2.12%
Fortran - 1.17%
Scheme - 1.09%
Python - 0.65%
Smalltalk - 0.49%
Lisp -0.12%

[Ryan Lintker]

Are there no COBOL jobs out there?  Or is it not considered a programming language?  Maybe you don't need any knowledge to get one of those jobs.  I had a professor tell me that there will still be COBOL programming being done in 2040, so I imagine that a few of the jobs should be out there.

[Peter Motyka]

Currently at my fulltime job, I am developing an application in VB.NET and PHP.  As of march we will be porting the entire application to JAVA.  I am really excited about working with JSP and servlets.  They seem to be a really powerful web technology.  Does anyone have any experience working with JSP and servlets?  If so, give me a tip on quality starting points to learn these technologies.  Books, websites, how-to's....

Thanks,
Peter

[Guest]

You mean the "[color=CC3300]C[/color]ompletely [color=CC3300]O[/color]bsolete [color=CC3300]B[/color]usiness-[color=CC3300]O[/color]riented [color=CC3300]L[/color]anguage"? :-P

It's probably between ADA and Fortran (<3%).

[Guest]

So is SIUE teaching VB.Net now?

[Peter Motyka]

Well, Socrates was promoting a CS390 class that would be teaching VB.NET and aspects of the .NET framework.  You can check out the details here.  http://www.cs.siue.edu/stornar/courses/cs390vb/cs390vb.htm

Peter

[William Grim]

Hmm, if C# has already captured 3.5% of the market that isn't too shabby for a new language.  I've heard good things about this language and will probably want to learn it before Java.

Sun seems to be moving towards death, and MS is happily walking over them.  That's why I'd wanna learn C#.

[Stiffler]

I have an excellent C# Book at home if you want to borrow it, Grim. I can, also, help you if needed. C# definatly has advantages over Java, and since MS released the Mac OS X and (Free or Open or Net)BSD .NET framework, one can run the same compiled executable on those platforms :-) I forgot where the link is on the MS website I'll post it later.

Jon

[Guest]

So despite that there are more java jobs out there now you guys want to learn C# more than java (J2EE)? And this is because you think C# will overtake java or that MS will "squash" sun? You do realize that MS was ordered to ship the newest SUN (<-do note we are talking about the SUN version not the decade old MS version that was/is broke) version of java with Windows just in the past few weeks right? I guess I'm just to anit-MS to admit that C# might stand a chance....but I really think that java will be on top for some time still at least 3 or so more years...more than enough for you guys to be worried about not knowing it.

[Stiffler]

OK. This is turning into a which-is-better war, so I have three links with reviews. I did a search on google.com. These are three pages from from the first 10 results. I really didn't feel like searching anymore. I didn't read all the through them. Let me know if you agree with them.

http://www.learnxpress.com/filefol/inside/special.html

http://radio.weblogs.com/0109134/2002/11/26.html

http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2001/06/14/csharp_4_java.html

I hope this settles the debate.
Jon

[William Grim]

Anonymous, first, if you're going to troll, use a real nick; stop posting as "Anonymous Coward".  Second, please realize that Sun has too many lawsuits against a huge player like MS to actually win and come out with profit.

Oh, and third, talk to some programmers on IRC, #c and #c++.  They'll talk to you about Java if you wish.

Also, why are you following statistics?  If you followed statistics, you would see MS is used at more companies in the USA than Unix is, and then you'd be saying, "Oh, but MS sucks!"  Maybe, maybe not.

[Guest]

I'm the original anonymous I'm not trolling I was just to lasy to hit the login button.

the 1st post 4th and 5th posts from anonymous are mine...the others are not.

OK. This is turning into a which-is-better war

which I didn't want. I don't know either java or C#...I was trying to point out two things....1) having VB as your primary language listed on your resume will not pull in as many jobs as other languages may and 2) the CS department isn't geared like ITT tech or some place like that...if you want to have the skills that will get the jobs it may be a good idea to add a few languages outside of class...regaurdless if they are java or C#. yeah a degree from a four year college will get you a job faster than fifty different skills listed from some place like ITT...I'm not agruing that point either...so please don't try to call me a troll for that remark either....

Also, why are you following statistics? If you followed statistics, you would see MS is used at more companies in the USA than Unix is,

We are talking about java not Unix. As far as following statistics...who's trolling again? The entire point of this freaking thread is about 1 statistic....that there are MORE java jobs than VB jobs. In return you said that you want to learn C# and that the department is planning on moving to C# at least more then likely. Your reason for this is that you believe C# will in one way or another overtake java. So I pointed out that a HUGE case was just won between the two and in return the two languages...in favor of JAVA. If SUN dies tomorrow it doesn't mean java will...just like if MS dies tomorrow it doesn't mean C# will. This isn't about MS vs Sun I cited the case because it's about Java vs everything else....

Thank you for posting the reviews...I hope they are not all one sided. I'll read them when I get the chance and maybe I'll decide which language to pick up....

[Guest]

Right now C# is at 3.5%, so it's job marketability is pretty low.
Just looking at these statistics, you're NINE times as likely to get a job that uses Java than C#.
Another way to look at it is that for every 100 CS jobs there are, less than four of them will be using C#.  Or, in other words, knowing ADA is just about as useful when it comes to finding a job right now.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to learn C# too, but right now Java is WAY more important.  You have to be a major MS lackey to look at those statistics and not draw the conclusion that Java is where it's at.

And while C# sure to grow in popularity, it'll more likely cannabilize the C++ and VB categories more so than the Java category, simply because the VB and MS-VC++ people will naturally upgrade to the .Net technologies.

Oh, and for as many people out there that have a distaste for Java, there's probably twice as many with a distaste for Microsoft - regardless of OS.

Considering that MS hasn't crushed Java YET, AND Java's got close to 30% of the 'job market', it's a pretty safe bet that it isn't going away for quite a while, regardless of what MS does or what Sun does.


Anonymous #2

[Victor Cardona]

wgrim wrote:
Sun seems to be moving towards death, and MS is happily walking over them.  That's why I'd wanna learn C#.

What makes you say that? The numbers posted earlier show that Java is still extremely popular. C# is going to gain market share because it is heavily marketed, and it probably does offer some advantages for the most popular platform--namely, a PC running Windows. That said, what does it offer non-windows developers? Nothing, because they already have Java and a slew of other multi-platform development tools and libraries.

Victor

[Victor Cardona]

NitricEster wrote:
2) the CS department isn't geared like ITT tech or some place like that.

Just a quick aside about ITT Tech. Read comp.lang.programming sometime if you want to know about the quality of ITT Tech grads.

Victor

[Guest]

Just a quick aside about ITT Tech. Read comp.lang.programming sometime if you want to know about the quality of ITT Tech grads.

Again I tried to say it the best way I could. In no way was I implying that ITT tech grads know jack....but they do have more skills listed on their resumes then what a four year college does....it doesn't mean they know more then a grad from a four year college in those areas but it does mean they can apply to more jobs because of it...but again it doesn't mean they will get those jobs over someone with a four year degree..

So to say it again...
person A from ITT with java on resume
person B from 4 year college with java on resume
person C from 4 year college with no java on resume

if company Z get's resume's from person A and person C which one do you think they'll hire for a java position?

Does that clarify it? I tried to say it the best way I could before but yet someone had to take that as I was claiming ITT tech grads in some way or another knew stuff that 4 year grads don't. I said they where "geared different" in no way did I say they where better. Please stop shoving words down my mouth.

I feel like I'm stepping through a mine field in here....

[Victor Cardona]

NitricEster wrote:
Please stop shoving words down my mouth.

I feel like I'm stepping through a mine field in here....

Settle down Beavis! I know what you were saying. I was just pointing out that ITT grads suck. Anyway, I agree with you.

Victor

[Gary Mayer]

Ryan wrote:
Are there no COBOL jobs out there?  Or is it not considered a programming language?  Maybe you don't need any knowledge to get one of those jobs.  I had a professor tell me that there will still be COBOL programming being done in 2040, so I imagine that a few of the jobs should be out there.

COBOL is still much in use by many companies - so much in fact that I understand that they have made an Object-Oriented version of the language.  Since COBOL isn't taught anymore, older programmers who  know the language are in high demand by some of these companies.  I know of a retiree who formed a company with a friend so they could offer COBOL support.  It's use is dwindling but I understand (through my friend) that many companies find it cheaper to keep what they have alive (esp w new OO additions) rather than going through the cost of porting to a whole new language.

-- Malekith

[Gary Mayer]

To reply to what I think was the original intent of the message...

I am pretty certain that the CS faculty have looked at the possibility of teaching Java on a more permanent basis. Some faculty advocate it, others do not. For whatever reason, I believe VB stands for now. As I understand it, this was completely a faculty-initiated discussion.

Keep in mind that the school is a business. Faculty need time to train, new materials need to be bought (books, etc.) and the new language would have to be evaluated for its impact on present curriculum.  Also, people just tend to be resistant to change.

-- Malekith

[Stiffler]

Hmmm....I need to fix the polls on the forum soon, so I can put up a question on which Graphical language should be offered (C#, Java, VB 6, VB.NET, or Pain-in-the-rear C++ Graphic Libraries) Did I forget any? I work on the getting the polls up tonight or tomarrow.

Jon

[Victor Cardona]

Stiffler wrote:
Hmmm....I need to fix the polls on the forum soon, so I can put up a question on which Graphical language should be offered (C#, Java, VB 6, VB.NET, or Pain-in-the-rear C++ Graphic Libraries) Did I forget any? I work on the getting the polls up tonight or tomarrow.

Jon

How about Python with Tkinter?

Victor

[R. Andrew Lamonica]

What about Flash.  

B.T.W. has anyone used XML sockets in Flash.  I have used XML before and I have used sockets before, but I still don't understand how the two could be combined into one thing.