CAOS Weekly Philosophy: Why is there a lack of gender diversity in Computer Science?

[Jerry]

With deference to BlueDragon I would like to offer up this weeks philosophy question:

Why is the Computer Science Program at SIUE dominated by men? Or put another way: Why are there so few women in our Computer Science Program?

Gender diversity in computer science is an issue I've been reading about over the last year. I recently submitted a grant proposal to study girl's perception of achievement in CS and engineering as a factor of praticipating in robotics projects.

There are many theories.

One I read about states that there is a physiologic difference between men and women's brains. This is the "Brain Type" theory. It states that males are predominately "systematic" type brains and women are predominately "empathetic" type brains. Whereas men are drawn to systematic activities such as programming, women are drawn to empathetic activities such as nursing.

Well, I don't know, but I do notice at conferences in Computer Science Education and HCI, empathetic areas of CS, there is significantly more gender diversity than say at an AI conference.

Other theories say it is a cultural phenonmenon. These range from early K-12 development to workplace attitudes.

Well, again I don't know, but I have been at faculty meetings and CAOS meetings that to me appear to have an atmosphere that may be uncomfortable or at least uninviting to women. At one faculty meeting a faculty member once told a joke and apologized to the only woman in the room before he gave the punch line. If he felt he needed to apologize why didn't he realize that it might be creating an univiting environment for women?

One theory states that it has something to do with expectations and reputations of the CS career. The stereotype is of the unsocial nerd. Well, I've been to CAOS meeting where it seems that this reputation is worn as a badge of honor and perpetuated.

So, let's here from you guys. Why is there a lack of gender diversity?  What, if anything, could be done to change this?

[Tyler]

I think it's a very multifaceted issue.

In regards to CAOS meetings being uninviting to women, you're probably somewhat right.  I think it's a hard loop to get out of.  Virtually no girls attend CAOS meetings and events, so girls don't want to go because there are very few girls there.    In response to making jokes and then apologizing to the women there, that happens too.  But once again, you cater to the masses.  It's difficult to cater to the one girl when there are 25 guys there.  Not that we don't want them there.  We beg girls to go to CAOS stuff (because so very few do).  It's no easy thing to do, and if any female forum readers wishes to comment on how we could do things differently to make it more appealing to the fairer sex, I would be grateful.

I also think that Dr. Weinberg was correct in stating that there are true physiological differences between the majority of men and women.  Men tend to like more black and white things.  Math, engineering, science.  Women tend to like things with shades of gray and a nuturing side.  Nursing, education, English.  By no means I am saying that this is the case all of the time---there are excellent male nurses and amazing female engineers, but it is true I believe noticeably more often than not.

So, where are all the girls??  In the education and nursing FICs in Bluff, that's where.  I believe I see a correlation.

~tfizzle

[Brad Nunnally]

As having had dragged along my girlfriend to some of the CAOS stuff I can offer some input. Kim is going into the elementary education, so one could she that she is naturally weary of computers and technology. I know she is just one example, but she finds, according to her preferences, a lot of this stuff boring. I am glad she takes the effort to try and get involved in something I am involved with, however she can be seen as an example of her gender.

On a whole I, please stress the 'I', don't think that things related to technology holds much interest in the female gender. Take movies for example, we like huge effects, action, and possible a good story. Women, based on my opinion, like mostly movies that have to have a good story, being sad or funny, that end with a tearful ending.

In pondering this question, it reminds me a lot of the ageless question "What do women want?". Since this is mostly a male dominated field and group we are in a serious disadvantage in helping get women involved. I do believe the psychological aspect has a pretty significant impact. Because on a biological aspect based on weather the child will be a boy or a girl the actually brain gets developed differently. The wiring gets plugged in different places.  

I think as a conclusion when it comes down to it the hardware is different between males and females. Until we do get more female involvement in CAOS or the CS field, I don't think it will be possible for us guys to be able to do it on our own.

Brad Ty Nunnally
CAOS Vice-Pres.



"The emotional, sexual, and psychological stereotyping of females begins when the doctor says: It's a girl."
Shirley Chisholm

[Jonathan Birch]

To misquote an aphorism, the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

Although few people would disagree with the idea that biological differences play a role in the differing ways men and women think, my understanding is that the current prevailing anthropological theory stresses that culture plays a much more significant role. Furthermore, the idea that the gender roles present in American society are 'natural' or even globally predominant is decidedly false.

Personally, I believe that the general lack of women in computer science in the U.S. is largely a result of the culturally promoted notion that CS is a 'male' field. I agree that the perception of computer work as being non-social contributes to the trend, but only insomuch as women are expected to be more socially participatory than men.

[Jerry]

greyblue wrote:
To misquote an aphorism, the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

Excellent point!

Although few people would disagree with the idea that biological differences play a role in the differing ways men and women think.

Really! Well there is at least on university president who came under fire recently for stating as much.

Personally, I believe that the general lack of women in computer science in the U.S. is largely a result of the culturally promoted notion that CS is a 'male' field.

BlueDragon said there is nothing a bunch of men can do to bring about change. How about CAOS hosting a computer workshop for the local Girl Scout Troops. Teach them someting about how computers work and how to program. Or a robotics workshop (my personal favorite :-)).

[Stiffler]

Okay, so guys get excited more about talking about the new Intel Dual Core Processor w/HT on a SLI enabled motherboard, two nVidia 6800 Ultra cards, 300 gig sata drive, a Dual Layer +/- RW DVRr drive, and the fastest memory on the market than women do. Okay, I admit, I drooled over those specs and I can't wait for the Dual Core Processors to be released. If guys were to talk about that then chances are, the women will get bored and just nod.

However, in all fairness, there are things that women like that men find boring. I am sure that there are subjects in College that have more women than men. hmm. I wonder if they have the same discussion about the lack of men that we are are having about the lack of women. Okay back on track.

Point being, I watched a report on 20/20 once, so take this with a grain of salt, since they can be a bit one sided at times. Well, did a report on how parents treat their children and they found that parents treat boys differently than girls. Boys are given the more "manly" toys and girls are given the more "womanly" toys. They even found that the manner of speech was different to the children. The boys were expected to hold the problems in, while the girls were encouraged to talk about the problems more. Well, this is what they were saying.

I know we live in a time where we no that there are no job that should be considered a "woman only" or "man only" job, but we still have perceptions and I believe that most people still think in the back of their mind that certain jobs are "woman only" and others are "man only". We may say publically one thing, but subconsciously think something else and this subconscious thought affects the what we do without even realizing it.

So, some women may not join CS, because deep in their subconscious, they think it is a "guy thing". It may not be a nerd thing, or even discrimination of the gender, but just subconscious perceptions.

*shrug* I don't know, but this was all based on what a 20/20 report said, and I don't know how biased or unbiased that report was, so like I said, take everything here with a grain of salt.

[Brad Nunnally]

I know this doesn't really answer the big question, but here it goes anyway.

To repeat my point earlier, it is hard for use to make this group or the CS field as a whole more womanly friendly due to the fact that we ourselves are not women. However, if we could just get one women spokesperson that could point out who "wrong" we are about some things I think it would help alot. So, I give out this challenge to all of use CAOSer's. If we know a female CS student or just someone that is interested in computers we should bug the living hell out of them to join up and help us. Any instructors that read this should be encourged to pick out their female students and let them know that they are more than welcome to join and become active. Myself and my fellow students should try to fit it into a possible conversation we might be having with a fellow female student.

I think if it is something we all try to do, then there is nothing stopping us. The worst thing they could say is "No", like we all haven't heard that before.

Brad Ty Nunnally
CAOS Vice-Pres.



"I believe in equality for everyone, except reporters and photographers."
Mohandas Gandhi

[Cliff]

I've been thinking about this problem, and to try to shed some light I've done an informal survey.  I asked a group of women, "why didn't you consider majoring in computer science?"  First, the demographics:  All of them have graduated with BS degrees in engineering, but not CS.  All of them graduated from top tier engineering schools.  All of them are either graduate students at top engineering schools, or are employed by top companies.

And the number one answer to "Why didn't you consider majoring in computer science?" was (this is not a joke): Poor hygiene among male computer science students.

When asked to elaborate, the most popular response was, in summary, "The buildings, computer labs, and classrooms wreak.  I wouldn't consider majoring in an area where my classmates haven't mastered something so basic as bathing."

Evidently, many women's first university computer science exposure occurs in the computer lab, and these are notorious pockets of stench.  Maybe women's noses are stronger than men's, but I've noticed this myself in SIUE's computer labs.  SIUE is not alone in this problem; It occurs at other universities as well.  The CS lab can often be found blindfolded with little olfactory aptitude.

There is good news to this.  While good hygiene is difficult to encourage, most of this problem can be solved with air fresheners and proper ventilation.

So, to those in charge, can we spend a couple of bucks and get some air fresheners in the labs?  You may be surprised at the results.

[Brad Nunnally]

I was using the wonderful Stumble feature on Firefox this evening and came across this little wonderful site. Any girls out there wanting to know how to get your own personal geek might find this useful.

Girls guide to geeks!!

Enjoy.

Brad Ty Nunnally
CAOS Vice-Pres.
"Too tired to do smily and quote" Me

[Tyler]

I am offended greatly by this.  I am not a geek.  I am a computer scientist!!!

[DaleDoe]

I'm not offended.  But then again, I'm not a true computer geek.  I just pass for one when I see it as profitable to do so.  8-)  

My definition of a "geek" is someone who enjoys technology/science/math enough to spend his/her free time learning/using it.  Stated differently, to "geeks" these things are not a tool to achieve an end, but they become an end themselves.  The term is not necessarily derogative.

For example, I am a car-geek.  Some of my cars are not purely transportation.  Neither are they just to show off or to pick up chicks.  To me, they would still be "cool" even if they just sat in the barn and nobody ever saw or drove them.

I hear a beautiful 1952 DeSoto calling me.  Gotta go...

[Tyler]

Sorry, I thought my post was laden with enough sarcasm for it to be clearly making fun of the computer nerd job thread.  I guess I need to learn to be more sarcastic.

[Gary Mayer]

Though long past due for a reply, having just seen this, I'll add my experiences.

Wright State U in Ohio hosts a yearly, 4 week-long science and engineering program (WRIGHT STEPP) for 7th grade minority students. They received volunteers from the campus and Wright-Patterson Air Force base to get engineers and scientists to teach different aspects of the subjects - from general physics to aeronautics. Students could attend so many workshops in a day and there were usually multiple occuring simultaneously for about an hour each.

Focusing on a girl scout troop or even broadening it to local junior schools could make an imact especially since SIUE draws a large number of local students. It could either be an engineering school thing or just a CS thing with a broad spectrum of CS presented.

While I'd encourage both undergrads and grads to perticipate in teaching a subject they feel strongly on, one recommendation is that "lesson plans" be reviewed by those who know how to present to the age group you draw. That includes those created by professors. Have teachers, scout leaders, who ever is used to working with the age group review the material to ensure it is something a) they find interesting and b) is presented in away that they can absorb it.

Mind you, if the student maintains a good GPS and attends the program for (I think) 4 years running, s/he gets a scholarship to the university. Something SIUE would be interested in?  who knows?

anyway, just an example of one university that took this issue on.

[Guest]

there were two questions posted here:
"why is there a lack of gender diversity?"
&
"what, if anything, could be done to change this?"

as to the first, i think there has been good discussion & i think some bit of truth in most of the posts. i would agree that women tend to excel in areas that are based more in feeling & judgment rather than logic & detail. this doesn't strike me as the answer though. while i think this is true i think the question is why arent women attracted to cs, im sure women would find applications for their natural apptitude in this field as well as any other.

the cultural view makes sense. little boys sterotypically get tinker toys and legos and constructs and kinex and linkin' logs and im erector sets and im sure the list goes on and on and on. little girls sterotypically get dolls. when men get dolls (no, they are ACTION FIGURES!!!!) they get army men or g.i. joe.

little boys play (again, sterotypically) is based around building things, taking them apart, figuring out how they work, constructing large intricate troop movements. little girls are encouraged to have tea parties, play house, have baby dolls. i think this kind of thing continues through life. women are pushed toward what they society says they naturally excel at, as are men.

so i think most women arent in cs because they arent interested & it would be difficult to get them interested.




as to the second question. and i am NOT trying to piss anyone off here...

why arent we asking why we want women involved in computer science? i am not saying i don't. i had class with some great female students, i work with some great women. but what is the reasoning behind wanting to change what we are doing so that our field is more attractive to women?

is it so our field can more successfully market software to women? is there some level of progress we feel we could achieve only through have a more gender balanced workforce?

personally, i would want to know how we attract people capable of developing new and interesting ideas, or people who will really enjoy the work & excel at what they do, regardless of gender.

so i ask you all, what do we gain by gender balancing the field?

[Jerry]

cynic006 wrote:

so i ask you all, what do we gain by gender balancing the field?

Fair question.  

There are a number of agruablly reasonable answers, but the one I think is the most rational is that diversity of culture brings about diversity of perspectives. Just as experts from mutliple discplines bring their own perpsectives on how to solve a problem when working on a cross-functional design team, people with diverse background bring new and interesting perspectives.

Yes, we want people who are capable of developing new and interesting ideas; but if there are artificial barriers that reduce the inclusion of parts of our society we may lose out on the some of these people.

As an anecdote, I notice that some of the female students in the program seem to get very interested in HCI and Usability. Maybe because it deals more directly with the human aspects of human-computer interactions; I don't know. However, they have to make it through two years of nearly pure programming before they see this side of the field. If this is an area that interests them why not find ways to introduce some interface design in earlier classes?

It's not a matter of trying to manipulate people's interests as much as removing barriers that dissuade people's interest.

[Guest]

"It's not a matter of trying to manipulate people's interests as much as removing barriers that dissuade people's interest."


that i can get behind. making cs accessable to women & diversifying perspectives for problem solving makes sense, as long as its not some bs push to try and be more 'pc'.

[Gary Mayer]

cynic006 wrote:
so i think most women arent in cs because they arent interested & it would be difficult to get them interested.

But why do they have a lack of interest? Is it because they are uninformed or that they have made an informed decision not to go that way? If their decisions are uninformed, then providing information can be a benefit for all.

Mind you, throwing the info at them right before they come to college may be a bit tardy. I think programs like the one I descibed previously would be more beneficial. That way, they are more likely to ask questions and can explore in junior high and high school.

I have noticed a lack of feedback from the few females that have delved into the black depths of CS. Anyone know why?

[Bryan]

I've been holding out on answering this question for a while.  I'm currently taking a psychology course on gender differences in society.  I've learned an absolute ton and while I get ribbed about it by my friends gender differences are very interesting to me.

First where to start, how about the question "Why is there a lack of gender diversity in computer science?"  This is actually a very simple answer.  There is lack of gender diversity because we make it that way.  Now that answer is as simple as it is complex.  Gender differences start as soon as the friends of the family show up at the baby shower with pinks for the girls and blues for the boys.  Before children even know the difference between boys and girls. Children can't tell the difference between a boy and a girl until between ages 3-7 years of age with Gender Constancy being the point at which children are fully aware of sex differences and can identify another child as either boy or girl.  This is when our culture begins pushing children in one direction or another.  Boys want to be firefighters or super hero's and girls want to be mommies or the adventurous wnat to be a teacher or nurse (but never a doctor  :roll: )  

Flash forward to puberty when children begin taking a more wide view of the world.  Now this is actually a very incorrect statement, CHILDREN do not begin taking a wider view of the world in terms of careers.  Our culture allows boys to begin noticing sciences, mathematics, etc.  However, girls are different.  Girls views widen slightly they are guided like cattle into careers such as nursing and teaching.  These careers, while noble, are limiting to the potential of females.  Jonathan mentioned that stereotype that girls are not good at math or sciences.  This statemetn is absolutely without a doubt 100% FALSE.  In terms of gender differences in ability the largest gender difference exists in an spatial relation and it's a 5% difference.  Men perform 5% better on tasks involving spatial relations.  5% THAT IS ALL!  Now people always say "but boys always do better in school in math and science!"  This is actually true but as I hope everyone knows by now...grades aren't everything!  Not only that but teachers have let these stereotypes creep into their teaching lecture.  It's been shown that in areas like math and science the boys are often praised for their apptitude while equivilant or even better girls go unpraised resulting in a lack of interest and enthusiasm (This was either Benbow & Stanley or Rosencrantz et. al, I can't seem to find the particular citing in my book at the moment) This is also a reverse phenomenon.  How many male elementary education majors do you know?  None, because there currently aren't any.  Surprised?

I think that trying to look at computer science and say "let's eliminate the gender diversity problem" is actually a rather large goal.  Society has shown that raising large groups to new levels in society is not an isolated task.  Look at the industrial revolution of the early 1900's, or the civil rights movements in the mid 1960's, or more on topic the empowering of women in the 1970's, including the addition of Division 35 in the American Psychological Association recognizing an entire field of psychology devoted to gender differences.  All of these were MAJOR movements spanning an entire nation and included millions of people.  I think trying to convert one universtiy is a good place to start but we better be prepared to do something to gain national attention.  Only then can we hope of changing things in the entire field of computer science.

I have a lot more to say on this but unfortunatley this post took me close to an hour (including looking up references and specific numbers).  Hehe guess I got a little passionate there.  :lol: